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Investigations Into Germanic Mythology

Research into the Old Heathen religion of Northern Europe, utilizing Viktor Rydberg's "Epic Method" which holds the Poetic Edda as the primary source, and recognizes Snorri Sturluson's Prose Edda and Saxo Grammaticus' Gest Danorum as secondary sources.

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Канал түзүлгөн датаMar 22, 2025

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08.04.202500:16

An interesting depiction of Yggdrassil and the nine worlds, I recently found online at https://www.beingawakened.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/08/representation-of-the-nine-realms-in-norse-mythology-1024x712.png (Artist Unidentified).

05.04.202502:50

That worldview he speaks of would be that of Snorri, described in Gylfaginning ch. 15-16, where he describes the placement of Yggdrassil's roots. It does appear to be completed despite some obviously issues, when one tries to illustrate it visually. But we can clearly see in Snorri's text, he is basing his description of Yggdrassil on the eddic poem Grimnismal, especially stanzas 29-31, so we can trace it back to its primary source and get a more accurate picture of the Old Heathen worldview as Rydberg demonstrates. From the beginning, the scholars have always used Snorri's Edda to explain the older eddic poems, but we must recognize that the Eddic poems were in fact Snorri's own source, and that he likely knew them in manuscripts form, which we know circulated during in time. Saxo speaks of a large trove of Icelandic historical documents about 30 years before Snorri wrote his Prose Edda, and the oldest copies of the Poetic Edda we have date from about 30 years after Snorri's time. So we know such manuscripts were available to Snorri.

05.04.202502:50

And I cannot emphasize enough: Modern eddic scholarship is not very old, less than 300 years old or so, and really did not get into full swing until the later half of the 1800s. Modern scholars do not have all the answers, and we cannot assume they are correct because they are the "professionals".

05.04.202502:50

These early scholars like Dasent are not out of date or antiquated at all. They are working with the same material we are, without the benefit (and sometime detriment) of the opinions of later scholars. As you noted, Dasent makes some very useful observations, as did Anderson, and Rydberg and others whom modern scholars rarely reference today.

05.04.202502:50

The early translations are very helpful for researchers and epicists to trace these ideas and find the original sense of the word. This is one of the reasons that the heirarchy of sources is so important. We trace all things back to their original source whenever possible.

05.04.202502:50

So here we have a modern scholar translating the same word in two different ways in the same passage! In reality, the word means "millbox" and Vafthrudnismal st. 35 refers to Bergelmir being "laid on a millbox". In Old Norse poetry, a part of something (like a spearpoint or a millbox) can represent the whole (like a spear or a mill), so here it means Bergelmir was "laid on a mill". He was ground up, and his bones became rocks and his flesh became soil, just like his grandfather Ymir before him. In Skirnismal, Freyr's servant Byggvir threatens to do the same thing to Loki. So Bergelmir was not originally a Norse Noah and wasn't saved with his family in an ark. Snorri doesn't really say that either. Snorri simply says he and his family servived the flood by "climbing up on his lúðr".

05.04.202502:50

Here is the same passage from Anthony Faulkes translation of Snorri's Edda from 1988, the one most people use today. Notice that he translates the word lúðr as "ark" in the Prose passage, but translates it as "box" in the quotation from Vafthrudnismal! His use of the word "ark" there clearly indicates he sees Bergelmir as a Norse Noah.

05.04.202502:50

These early translations are a record of the scholarship at time and by following them through time up to present day, we can see how the scholarship has evolved over the years. It hasn't changed much. Scholars today believe that Bergelmir was saved in a boat, like Noah, But they understand the stanza from Vafthrudnismal st. 35 as saying Vathrudnir remembered "when Bergelmir was laid in his coffin (a wooden box)" in other words when he died.

05.04.202502:50

In his translation from 1770, Percy renders translates the same word as "bark" meaning boat, and refer to the flood in his notes.

05.04.202502:50

These early translators were very influencial on subsequent translators, because these were the some of the few books available in English at the time.

05.04.202502:50

The first English translation of Gylfaginning from 1770 (the Time of the American Revolution) was by Thomas Percy, who was translationing it into English from a French translation by Paul Henri Mallet, who translated it from an abridged copy of Snorri's Edda, which regrouped the original chapters down into "Fables". So Dasent's translation was the first copy of Gylfaginning that was a true translation from the ori9ginal text. It did not include Skaldskaparmal.

05.04.202502:50

Snorri uses the word lúðr in the prose and in the verse from Vafthrudmismal he quotes. It litrerally means mill-box, and rationally one could think of it as a wooden box, and akin to a boat. That was the first understanding among the early translators. Dasent's is only the second English translation and its about 20 years before the American Civil war. The Poetic Edda would not be translated fully into English until 1865-66, during the time of the American Civil War by Benjamin Thorpe. So these texts and this scholarship is really not all that old. So it would be foolish to believe that scholars know all there is to know about this religion.

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22.03.202515:14The Traditional Heathens

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05.04.202502:50

The Prose or Younger Edda (Gylfaginning only)
Translated by George Webb Dasent 1842 https://germanicmythology.com/ProseEdda/DasantPROSEEDDA.html

05.04.202502:50

This is interesting. Anyone familiar with Dr Dasent?

"Whatever disputes may have existed as to the mythology of other branches of the Teutonic subdivision of the Aryan race—whatever discussions may have arisen as to the position of this or that divinity among the Franks, the Anglo-Saxons, or the Goths—about the Norsemen there can be no dispute or doubt. From a variety of circumstances, but two before all the rest—the one their settlement in Iceland, which preserved their language and its literary treasures incorrupt; the other their late conversion to Christianity—their cosmogony and mythology stands before us in full flower, and we have not, as elsewhere, to pick up and piece together the wretched fragments of a faith, the articles of which its own priests had forgotten to commit to writing, and which those of another creed had dashed to pieces and destroyed, wherever their zealous hands could reach. In the two Eddas, therefore, in the early Sagas, in Saxo’s stilted Latin, which barely conceals the popular songs and legends from which the historian drew his materials, we are enabled to form a perfect conception of the creed of the heathen Norsemen. We are enabled to trace, as has been traced by the same hand in another place,[21] the natural and rational development of that creed from a simple worship of nature and her powers, first to monotheism, and then to a polytheistic system."

https://www.gutenberg.org/files/8933/8933-h/8933-h.htm

23.03.202519:30

It was an old custom, at least in Iceland, to build dwellings around a remote Thingstead for the accommodation of the Thing-goers. Gylfaginning has its Trojan Aesir follow the example of the Icelanders and contruct buildings around the Thingstead they established near Urd's well, after they had succeeded in securing a connection between Troy and heaven via Bifröst. After this occurs, Gylfaginning distributes the gods’ halls and blessed abodes mentioned in myth as best it can between Troy down on earth and the Thingstead in heaven.
This should be sufficient to show that Gylfaginning's supposed account of the myth’s cosmographic view, due to its starting-point from Troy and to some extent as a result of the author’s Christian mode of perception with which he interpreted the heathen myths at his disposal, has become a colossal caricature of the myth, a distorted image that continues, not with certain and self-confident features, but with confused and contradictory ones, in the eschatology of Gylfaginning.

08.04.202500:16

28.03.202502:13

Thus, when looking for the most reliable information on the Old Heathen religion, we must turn to our most Heathen sources. Scholar John McKinnell helps us in that regard, by identifying the most authentic heathen material in his work "Both One and Many." (1994), posted above.

23.03.202518:05

McKinnell makes a powerful case for the Eddic poems being the best source for our knowledge of the Old Heathen Gods and their history. After all, they were Snorri's own source. Snorri Sturluson quotes and paraphrases eddic poetry often in his Prose Edda, especially in Gylfaginning, the mythic portion of his work, to support the narrative explanations he provides in prose. The poems most often quoted in Gylfaginning are Voluspa, Vafthrudnismal, Grimnismal, Skirnismal, and Fafnismal. Today we have complete copies of many of the poems he cites as evidence for his views, allowing us to compare what he says about the poems, to what the poems themselves actually say. Over the years, scholars have pointed out numerous discrepancies between what Snorri says and what the poems say. So the question becomes, did Snorri understand and explain the poems in the same way that his Heathen forbears did, or is his understanding colored by his Christian worldview? Writing 200 years after the Christian conversion of Iceland, it seems likely that Snorri himself was working from manuscript copies of the poems.

23.03.202518:39

Thus ends the Prologue, and Gylfaginning begins. As we shall see, the ideas found in the Prologue do not end there, but are an intregal part of all that follows. The title Gylfaginning means "The Fooling of Gylfi", and begins with the introduction of a native Swedish king named Gylfi, who goes to the earthy Asgard near Sigtuna, Sweden to learn about Odin and his Asia-men who had migrated there from the Classical City of Troy, in which now is modern day Turkey. He is met by illusions, and fooled into believing that Odin and his As0a-men are gods, told a series of fantastic tales, and returns to his people telling them the things he saw and heard, and that today is what we have come to know as Norse mythology! But is it the actual view of the Old heathens themselves?

23.03.202519:28

23.03.202518:37

5. "Thereafter Odin went north to what is now called Sweden. There was a king there called Gylfi and, when he heard of the expedition of the men of Asia, as the Æsir were called, he went to meet them and offered Odin as much authority over his kingdom as he himself desired. Their travels were attended by such prosperity that, wherever they stayed in a country, that region enjoyed good harvests and peace, and everyone believed that they caused this, since the native inhabitants had never seen any other people like them for good looks and intelligence.The plains and natural resources of life in Sweden struck Odin as being favorable and he chose there for himself a townsite now called Sigtuna. There he appointed chieftains after the pattern of Troy, establishing twelve rulers to administer the laws of the land, and he drew up a code of law like that which had held in Troy and to which the Trojans had been accustomed."

28.03.202502:15

According to John McKinnell, when we look for genuine heathen voices, there are three or perhaps four principle sources:

a) Mythological eddic poems
b) Skaldic verse
c) Viking Age Picture stones
d) Contemporary Christian views of Norse heathenism

Dating the material is problematic. While some of the eddic poems and skaldic verses may have been composed after the conversion of Iceland, in particular those poems preserved only in late paper manuscripts and skaldic verses incorporated into later sagas, there is little debate that on the whole, the bulk of eddic and skaldic poetry contain authentic heathen material. If the physical texts of the eddic poems can only be dated to the thirteenth century, that is not to say that the poems themselves did not originate much earlier. Eddic poetry bears all the hallmarks of oral-traditional verse, including alliteration, repetition and formulaic construction, with direct analogs in both Old English and Old High German poetry. Evidence indicates that the eddic songs are the last vestiges of the ancient oral histories of the Germanic people which Tacitus, writing in the first century AD, says “form the only record of their past,”(Germania 2), and which the Gothic historian Jordanes, writing in the sixth century, confirms, stating that “in the earliest times, they sang of the deeds of their ancestors,” (Getica, ch. 5).”

23.03.202518:33

"In the northern part of the world Thor met with and married a prophetess called Sibyl whom we call Sif. I do not know Sif's genealogy but she was a most beautiful woman with hair like gold. Lóridi, who resembled his father, was their son. Lóridi's son was Einridi, his son Vingethór, his son Vingener, his son Módi, his son Magi, his son Seskef, his son Bedvig, his son Athra, whom we call Annar, his son Ítrmann, his son Heremód, his son Skjaldun, whom we call Skjöld, his son Bíaf whom we call Bjár, his son Ját, his son Gudólf, his son Finn, his son Fríallaf whom we call Fridleif; he had a son named Vóden whom we call Odin; he was a man famed for his wisdom and every kind of accomplishment. His wife was called Frígída, whom we call Frigg."

23.03.202518:32

Snorri explains that King Priam's grandson Thor had children, and after many generations, Odin was born:

23.03.202518:30

While it may seem surprising to see Biblical history alongside Greco-Roman mythological figures (King Priam of Troy), Snorri had no real knowledge of Greco-Roman mythology. Once the Roman empire became Christian, Biblical history was combined with Roman history, which included the gods and myths of Rome. This was possible, since Rome occupied Judea during the time of Christ. However, from the Christian perspective, the Roman gods were simply human kings who presented themselves as gods. Snorri explains the Germanic gods in the same manner, beginning with a grandson of King Priam of Troy, who the people of the North came to know as the god Thor.

23.03.202518:26

This sets the stage for the introduction of the false gods (from the Christian perspective), which would come to be known as the Aesir. Snorri continues:

23.03.202518:25

"They learned from their ancestors that the same earth and sun and stars had been in existence for many centuries, but that the procession of the stars was unequal; some had a long journey, others a short one. From things like this they guessed that there must be someone who ruled the stars, who, if he desired, could put an end to their procession, and that he must be very powerful and strong. They reckoned too, that, if he controlled the primal elements, he must have existed before the heavenly bodies; and they realized that, if he guided these, he must rule over the shining of the sun and the dew-fall and the growth of plants resultant on these, and the winds of the air and storms of the sea as well.They did not know where his kingdom was, but they believed that he ruled everything on earth and in the sky, heaven and the stars, the ocean and all weathers. In order that this might be related and kept in mind, they gave their own names to everything, but with the migrations of peoples and multiplication of languages this belief has changed in many ways. They understood everything in a material sense, however, since they had not been given spiritual understanding, and so they thought that everything had been made from some substance."

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